Palaces of Putin and Medvedev: "The main money is not taken from the budget - they, as a tribute to, pay a lot of Russian companies. " Why tandem so much real estate? Conversation with the chief editor of Kommersant-Money "
Posted on 01/02/2011 13:00
Elena Rykovtseva: In the ruling tandem - Putin and Medvedev - only on the territory of the Russian Federation for more than two dozens of palaces for two. It is only those objects which are known officially. Why do they need so much? Can a company control the amount of real estate, which require a first person in the country, the means in which the costs of building and maintaining these facilities and, most importantly, whether it can force their leaders to reduce these crazy low expenditure for personal comfort? This is what we are talking today with the chief editor of Kommersant - Money, Sergei Yakovlev. The last issue of its magazine came out with the catchy title "The Mystery of the family fences. How many palaces of the ruling tandem. This is followed by a large an investigative material in which a large group of journalists from different parts of the country is trying to collect a pile of all the presidential-premier real estate. Sergei, why did you decide to inform the public about what is palaces and residences of the ruling has a tandem?
Sergei Yakovlev: As written in our material, before the New Year there was an aggravation of this topic in connection with the publication of an open letter to a Russian businessman in a reputable newspaper «The Washington Post». I'm interested in this subject and looked, and that, in fact, can be found in open sources, ie, the Internet, about this or other real estate top leaders of Russia? The information was extremely fragmented, and most importantly, very controversial. And in the end we decided to try to get that really belongs to the Office of Presidential Affairs and the Directorate General of federal property that is the rumor, which are the objects that belong to the fact that one is built, which is under construction. We have tried to compile an inventory of all that is and try to understand how much is needed to ensure that the Russian authorities to perform their functions.
Elena Rykovtseva: But the most important thing is that when you started to make an inventory, you are faced with the fact that you have declared: "Dear friends, in fact, is a state secret."
Sergei Yakovlev: Yes. Since the problem was to systematize that fragmented information, which can be found in different sources, of course, the easiest and most correct way - is to send requests from the magazine "Money", which we did. And we honestly did not care what means of communication, what special equipment ...
Elena Rykovtseva: What security system.
Sergei Yakovlev: It's interesting for us. We sent about a dozen requests. Answer written out of nowhere, we is not got but one letter - we respond Office of Presidential Affairs of the Russian Federation, the General Directorate of federal property. Very detailed answer, from which it becomes clear that - according to federal law on state protection of 96-year and presidential decree, the Russian Federation of 95-year - all of our questions relating to state secrets, and answer none of these structures, according to this law we should not and does not qualify.
Elena Rykovtseva: But the remarkable contradiction. You print the list. 26 palaces tandem. You list the official residence of the president: "Gorki-9", "Bocharov Stream", "wandered - Valdai. Official residence of the Prime Minister: "Novo-Ogaryovo near Moscow," Riviera "in Sochi. Next - objects that serve for their recreation and activities: the Constantine Palace, "Shuiskaya Chupa in Karelia ...
Sergei Yakovlev: Same officially.
Elena Rykovtseva: Great list! What do we have? When you are publishing this list, you issue a state secret. Are not you afraid that you are for it to attract? Have you been told that it is impossible on this, and you write.
Sergei Yakovlev: I think once all of these objects from time to time and with varying frequency of fall, including in the reporting of federal TV channels, the secrets of this is not done. But while the structure itself, such a person the executive, such a clerk can not sign the letter, which will be said: such and such a facility there that is. Nobody does, not to violate the law. In this issue of "News" we know perfectly well where someone takes the president today, or who meets and where the Prime Minister.
Elena Rykovtseva: And where he went on vacation, for example, in some of their estates.
Sergei Yakovlev: Sure. From this no secret is not done.
Elena Rykovtseva: And then there is the main issue. These 26 - official, which are known. We are talking about objects that they personally did not personally belong. That is, as soon as Dmitry Medvedev, ceases to be president, he loses the right to reside in the Gorki-9. This is something that belongs to them while they are in power. So maybe they will for her long stay, at least to not lose all of this huge list. But there are on this list and what is written by some people, through the firm, through the structure, which does not belong personally to Putin or Medvedev, but connected, one way or another, with their names.
Sergei Yakovlev: Most interesting, I think, in our investigation lies in the fact that we tried to find anything, at least some information about the objects that are attributed to Putin and Medvedev, who is behind them is actually on Whose money is being built. Moreover, once these facilities are not included in the official list, it seems, to them, and no decree and Privacy Act and the Official Secrets does not apply. They need to understand, either you turn it on the list of official sites - and then you can protect these sites from media attention, or does not turn - and then, sorry, we can write about them, can walk along the fence, we can take pictures, because No employee of CRS can not leave ... Why? This is not the Office of Presidential Affairs. "No, no, this is a private building." Well, if private, it means that there is quite different laws apply.
Elena Rykovtseva: Sergei, thus becoming aware of these things? Due to the fact that some businessman bursts patience, he explodes. I have three "explosion" in recent years counted. One - a businessman Valery Morozov, who accused officials of the Office of the affairs of the Administration of President Vladimir Leschevskogo in receiving large bribes, that he had requested "kickback" for the construction of Olympic facilities in the amount of 12% of the project - 1.5 billion rubles. Morozov hooked police gave this a bribe, then the police have hidden all fine materials, then it is connected to the press, "Novaya Gazeta", "Top Secret". Apparently, this whole thing came to Medvedev - Leschevskogo fired, he was under investigation. And now there was a very important event: a journalist of "Top Secret" Vladimir Voronov, who wrote about it, has won a court Leschevskogo. He tried to explain that he did not take bribes, that he slandered. But won the court reporter - hence, not slandered. So, the first "explosion" of a businessman named Morozov.
Second - it Chigirinskiy against Baturina in London court when Chigirinsky said Elena Baturin forced him to give shares to promote the business.
And the third case, which you just said - a businessman Kolesnikov "exploded" in New York, wrote an open letter to President Medvedev. The press is retold, but I think that clearly. It was not published on the most famous site. I want to read some words from the letter, in which Sergei Kolesnikov, wrote that Putin personally built a huge palace: "The history of the palace began in 2000 when I, like millions of Russians who enthusiastically welcomed the coming to power of a dynamic, young president, willing and able to implement real change. We believe that under his leadership in Russia, finally, establish law and order. We also assumed that the iron hand will stop the looting of our country by corrupt officials. " Here is a romantic businessman caught.
Instead, the firm where he works, to harness in a fund, make the "unfasten" there interest him, Abramovich and several businessmen. Then it turns out that this percentage goes to the enormous palace, which is being built under the Gelendzhik, fantastic. Moreover, this construction is not stopped even in a crisis. This project called "Project South. He describes it: "This is huge, in the style of an Italian palazzo, a palace with a casino, theater, winter, summer amphitheater, a chapel, swimming pools, fitness center, helipad and so forth the royal palace." And Putin himself, he writes, to approve projects finish the building and design. The object is recorded on his closest friend and companion by the name of the cooperative Shamalov "Lake" famous. And he does not have Shamalov and one per cent of resources, according to Kolesnikov, to construct a palace. All - at public expense. "Spetsstroy Russia" carries out construction of this palace. Finish the building, design, gas supply, sewage system - all within the budget, said the businessman.
Sergei, the press about the letter said, in two newspapers was his retelling. But that was before the New Year, it is very unfortunate. And then-then what? We now know, is the person who is willing to show, albeit indirect, evidence that this palace for Putin. So what?
Sergei Yakovlev: As you can see, we are writing. We write about the scandal with the publication of «The Washington Post» actually passed the attention of Russian media. And you said, than can be explained. However, the strangeness lies elsewhere - that the journalists of the newspaper ... You can probably assume that this is absolutely not dependent on Russian authorities to the newspaper. They managed to meet with Mr. Kolesnikov, and claimed to have seen documentary evidence of all facts presented to them. But do not write any further. And has not been published, none of the documents. Not only that, he disappeared and Sergei Kolesnikov, who after such a letter would seem to lose, why not continue.
Elena Rykovtseva: Wait! After I read your magazine, I called my colleagues from the newspaper "Vedomosti" (which is too obscure) with a question: "Where is your Kolesnikov? That's "Money" write: for a month about this man can not hear. " They argue that it is connected, on the «Skype» he is. I even promise to help him in the broadcast derived if we get in time to coincide with America. It would be great.
Sergei Yakovlev: Very interesting. We are now unable to contact him. While we have the words of people from the newspaper Vedomosti.
Elena Rykovtseva: And the text messages on the site.
Sergei Yakovlev: I hope that's the way it is, and with him will be contacted. But this is nothing more than a statement of Journalists, a Washington newspaper, which said that everyone saw, but no publications on there.
Elena Rykovtseva: What do you think should have been the prosecutor's office, the Investigation Committee to cling to this information and check, even if it builds a friend of Putin, but Putin - and at public expense? Or is it a newspaper should contact the official paper, with a request to the prosecutor?
Sergei Yakovlev: As for the prosecutor's office - now I can not answer. But such a sequence. After an open letter, once we can read, the president of Russia. The reaction was followed to the letter?
Elena Rykovtseva: By the way, yes, should have been instructed to give the president of Russia.
Sergei Yakovlev: There is no reaction. And the president, no doubt, after reading this letter ... I did say it was open. That is to pretend that you did not read it, is impossible. Moreover, we know that the president is fond of all that is connected to the Internet. Read it, but there was no reaction from the president. And what we have some independent prosecutors, which, seeing that there is no response from the head of state, will some of initiative? While not say - nothing. But he says nothing. Hence, we can assume anything in this letter did not contain such that would interest him, either, for whatever reason, he hesitates to give the investigation.
Elena Rykovtseva: I read in the magazine «The New Times» ... Incidentally, the material two years ago. They studied the Russian real estate in Sardinia, in Olbia. It is no coincidence they came to this island - because it is an island favorite friend, Vladimir Putin, Silvio Berlusconi. Journalists sit in a taxi and the taxi driver complained that because of the crisis (this was 2009) Construction of houses, Putin suddenly froze. "Want to Congress? All show - 22 bedrooms, a swimming pool. He is close to Berlusconi, the friend will live. " On the way back is another taxi driver: "Do you know a friend here recently Berlusconi visited, your president Putin. He has a yacht «Ecstasea», - showed his "knowledge" driver. And also told me about a villa with 22 bedrooms. That's one small ostrovochek where built villa for Putin. In the heart of Paris, as reported by Novaya Gazeta, the Office of Presidential Affairs has purchased a chic area, who last summer chose Putin himself - like how to build the Cathedral ROC. A near Paris, as you write in its submission, the same Presidential Administration building "mini-Versailles. Somewhere else and the world spread out the whole property. And to prove ...
Sergei Yakovlev: No evidence. These people, even if relevant to this property, yet something that can. Do not know about the economy, but to hide the wiser really know how. Therefore, it would be strange if easily as a private citizen who, in general, is any journalist could get such an evidence base that could conclusively say that such and such a facility is built for such and such officer of the Russian Federation .
Elena Rykovtseva: Do not you think that all our evidence base is served on us in court or be served? If you have not filed in court - so this is something there.
Sergei Yakovlev: to sue - is made of stories, which talk a week, something more long-playing. Here is a letter Kolesnikova: published, well, talked and talked. I think our government is different in such a remarkable property that they all - God's dew.
Elena Rykovtseva: I remind you that we ask you, dear listeners: whether society is able to control the amount of real estate, which require a first person in the country, can it do this? Three years ago in the magazine «The New Times» commented on how the West society requires an expense report. A few examples cited. "British MPs demand that the expenditure of all the Windsors were published in the press because, in their opinion, the royal family is spending too much taxpayers' money." Another two cases. "When he was British Prime Minister Tony Blair several times asked the question: with what money he and his family a rest? In September 2005, the British press called the sum of 43,000 pounds which was spent by Prime Minister on holiday in Barbados. Who paid the expenses of: Blair himself or royal treasury? ". Similarly, Schroeder was forced to report on what money he is resting. And Sarkozy told in great detail what friends paid for his holiday.
And why did the author of the publication, Elena Masuk, then everything is gathered into a pile? Because not only do all of these residences are mad money. But crazy - this is one conversation. But when Putin was sitting in his Bocharov creek "to him is to fly to record a huge number of ministers, mayors, chief editors of the Russian press, for some reason, hundreds of people flew to Sochi at the expense of the state. Although he has an office in the Kremlin, according to the idea. And seeing we are all on TV for these absolutely wacky travel costly. And some of these fellows require a separate plane. And they agree to go there, and the public agrees with these wild spending. Why?
Sergei Yakovlev: Well, a lot of issues at once. Main still: why society does not require reporting? You gave examples of republics, the UK, which is a constitutional monarchy, and there is a very hard life monarch. We, too, a republic, we have a Constitution, and there are the rulers of Russia. And if we look at how they live and work, all the signs of an absolute monarchy there. A society can be or not to require a report according to some laws, which probably is in this society to require a report. I think that both Putin and Medvedev are absolutely indifferent to these demands of society. In general, they do not care - that's all. And then to talk about.
Elena Rykovtseva: You in the material even tried to learn from the opposition, it would seem, politicians: they are somehow going to demand an account? And I realized that the answer was silence. Neither Zyuganov, Zhirinovsky, or ...
Sergei Yakovlev: From Liberal Democratic Party to our letter did not respond. And the press service of the Communist Party reported that the theme requests to the administration of Krasnodar Krai (about this famous subject on which you are now the most noise comes in Praskoveevke), like, made a deputy. Yesterday came the magazine Vlast, there is a great tip Oleg Kashin ...
Sergei Yakovlev: This is not an agent, but it's pretty well-known businessman and owner of the company «Penny Lane Realty» George Dzagurov. He tells our reporter: "For my part, I can assure you that a reasonable approach and work with a trusted realtor property will be issued to the acquirer, so that any tips and links to the actual owner you do not already syschete. I assure you, the businessman said on the basis of its long and extensive experience in conducting such transactions, because this agency is very long on the market and very well known.
Elena Rykovtseva: That is, if in Russia you can still somehow make an inventory of what they own, Putin and Medvedev, then abroad have all the ends are lost.
Sergei Yakovlev: Absolutely dark forest. You said that Britain did everything for the Russian, to say the investors. But Britain did so for investors in general, for people who want to come with their capitals on the island. But did they, when they wrote their laws, they write them mainly for Russian and now no longer business, and for Russian officials?
Here listeners phoned and tried to hold some differences. How Whatever you call - despotism, tyranny, but it's still one or another type of monarchy. Perhaps you think the word gentle, but the essence remains the same. So, all our conversation leads to a simple idea: if the ends do not find in the existing order, then those people who are in power, of course, will do everything possible to put an end to the bud any slightest attempt to hold fair elections. Because, otherwise, if the change of power, something from the information at least about the property will inevitably fish out and become public domain. And this, we can assume really do not want those people who now tell us how much they do for the country, and tell us how to love Russia.
Elena Rykovtseva: I think that is why such efforts are thrown advocacy and Mikhail Leontiev, and other staff of propagandists, and Putin personally for something to discredit the site «WikiLeaks»: «It is well known for what it's done! This is also a provocation against Russia. " Preemptively, just in case there is something on this topic will appear.
Sergei Yakovlev: It seems to me that here is not in the title of the site. Just now, while we have such power, what we have, everything will be done in order to discredit any word of truth, if this is true, let's inconvenient.
Elena Rykovtseva: Vladimir from Ulyanovsk wrote: "All hope for honest and courageous journalists who reveal the crazy spending on palaces first persons who have lost all shame."
When I read your article details where you have so much navyyasnyali, I suddenly thought: someone this may seem a higher degree of patriotism - it means that these two are not going to bring down the country and for themselves after all Russia landscaped, to fit their needs and requests!
Sergei Yakovlev: I think that is not collected. And those who think otherwise, perhaps, the Kremlin can say: "Do not wait!".
Elena Rykovtseva: "Anywhere we denemsya, and you - from us."
Sergei Yakovlev: Who will survive.
Elena Rykovtseva: Vadim from Moscow, hello.
Listener: I'd like to say thanks to Sergei Yakovlev and all journalists of Kommersant - Money for this topic. But I recently read on the Internet appeal by President Medvedev to help two sick children. Recently in Peter pregnant women took to the picket, because their benefits are reduced. Heard the statement Dvorkovich that should reduce the scholarship students. And we know that the American businessman Yuri Shevchuk kept house for the treatment of alcoholics. Swiss carpenter, helping to collect money from the Swiss, to treat our elderly and ill near Moscow. Simultaneously Chulpan Khamatova engaged by the Fund. And that's where the money! Even the educated, well-known part of our society - actors, writers, they do not they tell. And do not see the parents of sick children, where the money, at least some of the money, which could treat their children. And they say: "We support and will vote for our leaders."
Elena Rykovtseva: Thank you, Vadim. This contradiction Sergei comment now. And I just add one to your performance information, dear listeners. January 27 this year, Vedomosti rehearsed message Turkish newspaper «Vatan» that Dmitry Medvedev, has acquired a new 53-meter yacht for 30 million euros. "Yes, the president is indeed a new yacht - confirmed in the administration - well, and its price - on the conscience of the Turkish edition. Did not specify the price. Well, Putin has these yachts, Abramovich flotilla ... Sergei, he also calls for support of poor children, and then for some reason, buying a yacht, on which it becomes known, and they do not even deny it. Why should he?
Sergei Yakovlev: First, I thanked the last caller. Our children, journalists are pleased that their work you are appreciated.
And on individual yachts.
Elena Rykovtseva: Against the backdrop of raising money for poor children.
Sergei Yakovlev: Honestly, even to deal with this is not desirable. What's the difference? Management Department explains that they have put into operation a new boat named "Sirius", and then they say: "But we gave up the yacht" Caucasus ", which was until then." This all does not matter: a yacht, two boats who have one kind. You can understand the thing: people dispose of all of Russia. We did an inventory, have counted, but you must understand that before the people - the whole of Russia.
And now about the fact on how much money is being built, when do children need help or when you have to quickly rewrite the law, rather, to formulate it differently, there is a cunning scheme. Because, as usual, counted, and then, when pregnant women felt that they would rely, it turned out that this is lower than it was before the "improved". That property which is officially on the balance of the Office of Presidential Affairs and the management, which serves, including properties in possession premiere, maintaining that all - of course, is spent budget money. But what concerns the construction of new facilities that ... I assure you, until we speak now in the studio, these objects continue to be built, some think, and so on. That is, the process does not stop for a second.
Elena Rykovtseva: This is a series of dog that barks but the caravan moves on.
Sergei Yakovlev: Absolutely. The mass of companies that operate in Russia, because they just work and that are involved in different programs, they are part of the money list at the firm, we are totally unknown, about which we will never know. Through these companies the money is cleared of any traces of their origin, are in various funds. And these funds financed the construction of facilities, including for top officials. That is the main money is not taken from the budget - they, as a tribute to, pay a lot of Russian companies. That's it.
Elena Rykovtseva: Svetlana asked: "And you do not know many so-called problem of Stalin, too, were kept secret or is it our invention, the present?"
Sergei Yakovlev: Middle cottage, distant problem - everything was secret. Stalin was a paranoid type. And how could this be classified? ..
Elena Rykovtseva: Vasily Danilovich writes: "Our permanent successor to King Boris, a young man who had a Zaporozhets and a small dacha, now owns the residence where likes to relax in solitude, not counting the dog. Knowing that 20 years later, he left the "galley" and has already started to prepare myself fashionable dacha on the shores of warm seas price, not assessable. And since there is no seizure, then he has nothing to fear. " Indeed, nothing to fear.
"Do you believe that all of Putin's friends - billionaires, and he - disinterested?" - Writes Rice. We do not believe in it.
"Society does not even feel the desire to control the property owners of the Russian land, because he believes it is in order. They are upstairs, they steal, we'll be there - even cooler built near. The only thing he wants most of the population - see the photo the palace in the newspaper "Life", but "Life" only writes about Galkin "- Photos of the palace is the magazine Kommersant - Money." This is a real palace!
Sergei Yakovlev: This is an Italian palazzo.
Elena Rykovtseva: Absolutely. "This should deal with our Duma - dreams Svetlana - which accepts and approves the budget. But since it is included in the budget Secret ...». By the way, as the budget is carried out? Apparently, the Property Management Department lists certain amount, and there they are themselves partitioned, where some boat ...
Sergei Yakovlev: We started with this conversation. It is a mystery. Therefore, it is held on the budget in those articles, which are closed.
And what kind of Duma we talking about? We are in what year did you live?
Elena Rykovtseva: Really! "If the Constitution of Russia - the welfare state, why are the two main Kremlin's lawyers have such a huge property? Does this mean that they are parasitic on the body of our people? ".
Sergei Yakovlev: No, they are very hard work for the benefit of us all, including the person who sent this question. And such a hard and effective work, probably should be rewarded, including, and in this way.
Elena Rykovtseva: "Society can not monitor the expenditure budget, including the villa of Putin. Society does not know what is happening in the country - there is no reliable information on television. For Russia, Europe needs such as sanctions, as against Lukashenko. The listener feels that the only thing that can stop - this is where Europe ... And we see that Europe is supported Luzhkov, for example.
Sergei Yakovlev: What is supported? Gave a visa.
Elena Rykovtseva: Cyril from Chelyabinsk, hello.
Listener: I believe that our government is engaged in a cheap polemic.
Sergei Yakovlev: I would say: very expensive. About the cheap - are you in vain.
Listener: It is designed for a primitive, slavish mentality.
Sergei Yakovlev: And it works, right? If you believe the polls and this election, though about the second I would not say that we should believe them, but at least these polls - is running.
Elena Rykovtseva: Completing this program "Hour of the press" on the waves of Radio Liberty. I think that is not the last time we are going on this topic, it seems boundless, and the number of invested funds as well.